Meeting documents

1

DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST

Councillor R. L. Owen enquired as to whether or not members had to declare an interest if they were School Governors or members of school management?

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer in reply stated that there was an in-built dispensation under Paragraph 12.2 of the new Code of Conduct that related to both Governors and those who were parents or grandparents of children in school.

The Leader requested legal guidance as to whether or not members needed to declare an interest if they were involved in the farming industry?

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer stated that she did not consider that there was any requirement for members to declare a prejudicial interest on the motion before Council today.  

Councillors P. M. Fowlie, T. Jones, R. L. Owen, R. G. Parry, OBE, E. Roberts, P. S. Rogers and

H. W. Thomas declared an interest in Item 3 of these minutes by virtue of their agricultural businesses.

2

TO RECEIVE ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM THE CHAIRPERSON, LEADER, MEMBERS OF THE EXECUTIVE OR THE HEAD OF THE PAID SERVICES

None to declare

3

REQUISITION FOR AN EXTRAORDINARY MEETING OF THE COUNTY COUNCIL

In accordance with Para 4.1.3.1(iv) of the Council Constitution (Page 94) the Chairman had called an extraordinary meeting of this Council following a requisition for that purpose signed by 5 members of the Council.

The requisition read as follows:-

“We the undersigned wish to discuss the following motion at the next County Council meeting called for 30th of October 2008:-

SCHOOL MEALS

We are concerned with the effect on children of the change in school meals contract provision since September 2008. Questions were asked at last full Council meeting and Portfolio Holder for Education promised to look into the issues.

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What has he found out?

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What are the up to date figures on the exact reduction in children taking meals since the beginning of present term?

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What effect will this reduction have on the Council’s Annual Budget?

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How much of the food is purchased locally i.e. within 25 miles of Llangefni?

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What are the views and attitude of the canteen staff, teachers, parents and school governors to the changes?

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If unsatisfactory answers are given to these and other questions, we request the Leader and Portfolio Holder for Education to advise the Council what action they intend taking to fully rectify the position.”

(Councillor Raymond Jones wished it to be minuted that he had abstained from voting on this matter).     

Councillor P. S. Rogers stated that the 5 members who had signed the Notice had been forced to call the meeting in view of the acute crisis that faced the school meals service, not only with regard to the falling number of pupils taking school meals but also as regards the employment of some 170-180 canteen staff.

Concerns had been raised at the last County Council meeting on 16th September and he felt that the Portfolio Holder for Education had not provided Members with a satisfactory response at the time. He was of the opinion that the problems had got a lot worse since that time.

He referred to the report before the Executive on 7th July, 2008 and the concerns raised within that report with regard to local suppliers and local sourcing and the ‘Appetite for Life’ guidelines issued by the Welsh Assembly. He mentioned that the Steering Group set up by the Council, considered that the reporting and monitoring in place within this Council was crucial to the success of the contract. In his opinion, none of the concerns raised by the canteen staff, pupils, teaching staff and members of this Authority had been addressed. Another concern was the minimum requirement, that 20% of the value of foodstuff was to be sourced locally. In the opinion of the canteen staff this was not being adhered to.

Finance was to be drawn down from the Welsh Assembly in order to assist in the monitoring of the school meals contract and he welcomed further information in this respect. He was aware that there were children who were not even taking their free school meals. He enquired as to what progress had been made and how the Authority were going to alleviate the crisis in the school meals service?

Councillor H. Eifion Jones seconded the motion and looked forward to receiving replies to the important questions raised within the Notice.

The Leader stated that he had given his assurance at the last Council meeting that they would be looking at the issues raised. Since that meeting, he and the Portfolio Holder and the Head of Service (Education) had looked at this issue in depth. Since re-organisation in 1996 this Council had taken upon itself not to monitor the provision of school meals. Full monitoring was now taking place and there was an officer in place to undertake those duties. The reduction in schoolchildren taking meals since the beginning of the present term for September equated to four pupils per primary school on average.

The monetary effect on the Authority was very minimal. As Leader, he had visited various schools and discussed the matter with the relevant parties. He was of the opinion that the food being offered now was of a higher quality. However, there were some provisions in school canteens from the previous operator. There was a need possibly to fine tune the new service and provide a hot meal to children as part of their daily routine.

Councillor C. L. Everett wished to point out that as regards monitoring, the Audit Commission carried out a survey of all school meals contracts on Anglesey in 2003, which showed high levels of satisfaction by parents and pupils with the service. The new contractors had stated back in July 2008, that “it was their priority to support local suppliers in Anglesey and thereafter support local producers throughout Wales”.

The Head of Service (Education) in response to the questions raised, stated that as regards the number of pupils taking school meals, the figures had been based on the primary sector between September 2007 and September 2008. No figures were currently available for the secondary sector. Between that period there had been a reduction of approximately 200 meals per day, which equated to roughly 4 meals down per primary school. However, in some schools there had been an increase in the number of pupils taking school meals.

He and the Leader had twice met with the contractors Eden and they had been prepared to discuss the concerns raised. If children did not favour some meals, Eden stated that they were prepared to consider local variations to overcome those problems.

School meals prices were reviewed annually in April of each year and the prices were compared with the prices set by other North Wales Authorities. Raising prices slightly resulted in fewer pupils taking meals. However, those figures usually balanced out again after a period of say four weeks.  He stated that there were certainly peaks and troughs in the system.

The Officer appointed to monitor the contract would commence duties next week. This officer would monitor the Contract on a regular basis. This information would then be fed back to the County Council and to the Education Overview Committee.

As regards local produce, the Head of Service stated that there was no change in the providers of fruit, vegetables, bread and milk to schools. However, what had created concern was the source of the meat. Since there were concerns that the meat was frozen and that the meat had according to the contractors occasionally come from overseas, he and the Leader had held lengthy discussions with the contractor in this respect. Last Thursday, they were assured by Eden, that from next Monday, no frozen meat would be used in the Island’s schools and that it would be fresh chilled meat sourced in the United Kingdom.

The Leader reiterated that fresh chilled meat, not frozen meat would be used as from Monday next. The suppliers before September were bringing in meat from overseas and this was factually correct. He stated that there were changes being made to the contract, but that some fine tweaking remained. The provision from now on would be as good if not better than other Counties.

Councillor J. Penri Williams stated that there were approximately 200 fewer children in the primary sector taking school meals. He enquired as to how many children were on the school register this year?

The Head of Service (Education) in reply stated that in September 2007 there were 4,910 pupils between 4 - 11 years of age in the primary sector. By September 2008 this figure was 4,854.

Councillor W. J. Chorlton was of the opinion that many of the concerns being raised could have been addressed if the Principal Scrutiny Committee had the opportunity of calling-in the Executive’s decision of 7th July, 2008. He enquired as to why it had taken 10 years for the Council to appoint a person to monitor the school contract? Was there also a change mid-stream in the contract which resulted in the previous provider withdrawing its tender?

The Leader in reply stated that in 2006, the previous Executive were aware that the contract was coming to an end and they gave an extension of 12 months to the contract. GPS, the previous providers were not interested in tendering for the new contract.

Councillor W. J. Chorlton stated that he was fully aware of the extension to the contract but that he sought answers as to why the previous contract had not been monitored to the same degree as the existing one?

The Head of Service (Education) stated that a decision was taken in 1996 not to monitor the contract and there was no client officer in the Education Department to monitor it on a day to day basis. Had there been, it would have been reflected in the cost of the contract. The contract was not brought to an end mid-stream since it was coming to the end of its natural life after getting an extension up until the end of August 2008. GPS were given the same opportunity as other companies interested in the contract but decided not to tender.

Councillor Ff. M. Hughes expressed her concern that Councillor P. S. Rogers and others had decided to go to the Press about this matter. How many Councillors had bothered to speak with the Head of Service about this matter? How many had bothered to investigate the difference between the previous menu and the current menu? She assured the Council, that as Chair of the Education and Overview Committee, that Committee would from now on be closely monitoring the school meals contract.

Councillor R. Dylan Jones stated that he was also concerned as to the situation in the County’s Secondary schools in that fewer children were taking school meals and making far more use of local chip shops, sandwich shops, etc. He enquired as to whether the Council had a break clause in contract and had the contract been signed?

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer stated that there was no specific break clause, although in the draft contract there was an option on the part of the Council to extend the current 3 year contract for a further two years. The final version of the contract had not yet been endorsed, in that the Council were still awaiting information from Eden in relation to the TUPE transfer relating to staff.

The Head of Service (Education) stated that one of the reasons why the Chair of the Council had agreed to it being dealt with as an urgent matter at the Executive on 7th July, 2008, was because that on the evening of 9th July, canteen staff transferring from GPS to Eden would be meeting their new employers at Ysgol Gyfun Llangefni. At the time there were 196 staff transferring. It was the livelihood of people and the uncertainty amongst staff transferring, that necessitated it being dealt with as an urgent matter.

Councillor G. O. Parry, MBE stated that it was important for members to realise the situation that faced the Executive at the time, in that a decision had to be reached quickly so that school pupils were provided with meals as from 1st September, 2008.

Councillor W. J. Chorlton asked that if there were problems with the contract, should not the Executive have put a further extension to that contract? He also requested an explanation as to the TUPE element of the contract and as to whether or not the Chair of the Council had signed a personal contract with the Company to provide them with office space before the actual school meals contract was signed?

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer in reply stated that the Chair of the Council had agreed on 7th July, 2008 that the call-in should not be allowed because of urgency but the first approach from the contractor in relation to commercial business with the Chairman did not actually happen until 16th July, 2008.

In reply to Councillor Chorlton’s question regarding a further extension to the contract, the Deputy Leader stated that GPS had decided that they did not want to continue with the contract.

Councillor G. W. Roberts, OBE asked for clarification as to the TUPE issue and who were employing the staff?

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer in reply stated that GPS was the employer.  

Councillor Roberts enquired as to why this Council had to guarantee the payment of TUPE?

The Corporate Director (Finance) in reply stated that the practical situation the Council faced was that whoever took on this undertaking would have to take on the staff and would have to guarantee TUPE rights. No prospective contractor was going to take on an uncertain figure since it was only 2 weeks before the new contract began, that they received all the information required. Nobody was going to take on that risk without certain guarantees from the employer that those costs could be underwritten by the Council. Similarly, the Council had to look at the liabilities and risks faced and question what the alternative was. In this case the alternative would have been that the staff would have transferred to this Council.

Councillor G. W. Roberts, OBE expressed surprise that there was no withdrawal clause in the contract. He sought an assurance that Gwynedd Council had no interest in the present contract.

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer in reply stated that Gwynedd had expressed an interest originally but they withdrew and they did not submit final tender documents.

Councillor G. W. Roberts, OBE stated that he found it difficult to accept the urgency in this matter. He felt that as a Council it was important to increase the minimum requirement that 20% of the value of foodstuffs be purchased locally. This he considered was a weakness in the system. He queried as to why the papers before the Executive on 7th July were confidential?

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer in reply stated that the reason for confidentiality was because of commercial confidentiality (Paragraph 14 of exempt information) in relation to the Company (Eden) and also Paragraph 16, in that there was a possibility that legal advice would be given in that context.

Councillor Roberts requested that he be provided with a written response as to why the matter had been dealt with on a confidential basis.

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer stated that she would provide Councillor Roberts with a written response in this respect.

Councillor E. Schofield was of the opinion that the questions raised in the motion had been addressed and furthermore that the contract was now going to be monitored on a regular basis.

The Leader thanked the Officers for their work in this respect and gave his assurance, as he had  done at the last Council meeting, that these issues would be addressed and a report brought back to the Council in December. He also assured members that monitoring would now take place and that he would be taking a personal interest in this matter. He was also working with Officers in an attempt to increase the minimum figure of 20% for local produce with Eden. Also from next

Monday, meat products would no longer be frozen but would be chilled meat, sourced from the United Kingdom.

Councillor G. W. Roberts, OBE requested clarification as to the rumours that the Chair of the County Council had a personal contract with Eden.

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer referred Members to the Members Register of  Interests and stated that the information concerning that interest had been recorded and that the contents of the letter by Mr. R. Meirion Jones, Solicitor, to Councillor Chorlton was factually correct.

Councillor H. Eifion Jones stated that most members were unhappy as to the figure of 20% for local produce for an agricultural County such as Anglesey. He was happy to note that monitoring would now take place and that this had been a weakness in the system. He also suggested that the definition of ‘local food’ should be given further consideration.

He would welcome fuller details as regards the numbers of pupils taking school meals and the observations of teachers, governors and canteen staff in this respect. He considered that he had not received a full response as to any effect this reduction would have on the Council Annual budget and on the setting of the Council Tax. He considered that the contract could have been extended for a further period and that GPS did have an interest in continuing that service. He sought clarification in this respect. He was disappointed that there was no break clause in the present contract and that the contract had not been formally signed.

He was glad to see that the Leader had addressed some of these problems but he welcomed a further report to the next scheduled meeting of the County Council and regular monitoring reports  to the Education Overview Committee.

Councillor P. S. Rogers stated that he was unsure that the figures quoted today corresponded with the figures he had been provided with. He also did not consider that the Leader had satisfied the concerns raised by Teachers, Governors, canteen staff and pupils that he had understood the problems being faced. He welcomed the statement that no more frozen meat would be used and that it would be chilled meat, reared and bred in the United Kingdom.

He went on to state that it was he who had instigated the debate on this matter at the Council meeting in September. The Portfolio Holder, Councillor E. G. Davies failed to respond on the day and he was not even present at today’s meeting.

Remarks made by Councillor Rogers against the Portfolio Holder in his absence were withdrawn at the request of the Chair.

The Leader thanked Councillor H. Eifion Jones for his comments and his support in trying to move things forward. He assured Councillor Rogers that he had acted after the September meeting of the Council on this matter and not following the article that had appeared in the Daily Post recently.

Councillor W. J. Chorlton requested that to be allowed the opportunity of meeting with the Managing Director and the Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer to discuss the contents of the letter by the Solicitor with regard to the declaration of interest by the Chair of the County Council.

The Director of Legal Services / Monitoring Officer agreed to such request.

The Corporate Director (Finance) stated that the Council today had been given an opportunity to hear responses to a number of questions in the original motion and the chance to have debate about a number of other questions. With regard to the original motion, this was a motion to ask questions only. The questions had been asked and a reply given. It was not therefore possible to reach a decision thereon, apart from the fact of noting that there had been an open debate.  

The Chairman in drawing the meeting to a close thanked the Officers for their work in respect.

RESOLVED to note the questions raised in the Notice of Motion and the fact that there had been open debate on the matter.