Meeting documents

Prior to commencing the Agenda for the meeting, Councillor Fflur Hughes drew the Chairman’s attention to the fact that for the first time since she had become a Member of the Council, she was disappointed to note the absence of a Prayer at the beginning of the County Council particularly in view of it being the Season of Goodwill. Bearing in mind the way in which the County Council had been conducted at its last meeting she believed a Prayer to be more appropriate than ever. She proposed that all those present at the meeting recite the Lord’s Prayer. The Chairman acceded to this request.

1

DECLARATION OF INTEREST

There was no declaration of interest by either a Member or Officer in respect of any item of  business.

2

TO RECEIVE ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM THE CHAIRPERSON, LEADER, MEMBERS OF THE EXECUTIVE OR THE HEAD OF THE PAID SERVICES

There were no announcements.

3

REQUISITION FOR AN EXTRAORDINARY MEETING OF THE COUNTY COUNCIL

In accordance with Para 4.1.3.1(iv) of the Council Constitution (Page 91), the Chairman had called an extraordinary meeting of the Council following a requisition for that purpose signed by 11 members of the Council.

The requisition read as follows:-

“We the undersigned request that a special emergency meeting of the County Council be held to hear the questions put by Councillor Peter Rogers and refused by the Chairman at the meeting of December 14th, 2006.”

The Requisition, dated 14 December 2006 was signed by Councillors :

Peter S. Dunning, J.Arwel Edwards, P.M.Fowlie, Fflur M.Hughes, Aled Morris Jones, O.Glyn Jones, R.L.Owen, Bob Parry OBE, G.O.Parry, MBE, P.S.Rogers, Keith Thomas.

Prior to inviting Councillor Peter Rogers to submit his first question, the Chairman requested the Monitoring Officer to address the meeting.  The Monitoring Officer wished to share with the Members the advice which she had given to Councillor Rogers on 12 December 2006 and to the Leader of the Council.

She drew attention to the following :

The right to ask questions at Council Meetings, is  to Cabinet Members and Chairs of Committees and  reflects those individuals’ accountability for the areas of work over which they are responsible;

Question 1 refers to the Charitable Trust which is a separate legal entity from the Council and the Council Leader has no more, and no less, responsibility for the Trust than any other Councillor. In addition, the Leader is not responsible for appointing the Chair of the Trust who is elected by the Trust itself.

The Monitoring Officer’s advice to the Leader was that the question fell outside the ambit of the procedure in the Constitution and he was not required to respond.

She also said that there is a fundamental difference in law between personal bankruptcy and corporate receivership or liquidation and care should be taken when making such claims. What is said at Council Meetings is not covered by absolute privilege but only by qualified privilege which means that, if challenged, Members must establish that they had a reasonable basis for making such claims. She concluded that if Councillor Rogers has concerns regarding the management of the Trust, those concerns should be referred to the Charity Commission.

On a point of Order, Councillor J.A.Jones questioned the appropriateness of the question at it was felt it did not conform with Clause 4.1.12.2(iv) of the Council Constitution.  He contended that the Council has no responsibility for the Trust.  

Councillor Rogers considered what he had heard from the Monitoring Officer to be far reaching and recognised both legal and financial responsibilities Members of the Trust have. He considered the matter to be a detailed and complex problem but would leave it to the Members.

In view of the above advice, the Chairman asked whether Councillor Rogers wished to proceed with Question 1. He said he would challenge the legal interpretation and wished to proceed. Councillor J.A.Jones reiterated his previous comments that the question must be relevant to the Council’s responsibilities and suggested Councillor Rogers should put his question either to the Trust or to the Charity Commission. The Monitoring Officer stated that Councillor Rogers could ask the question but that her advice to the Leader of the Council was that he was under no obligation to respond.

1.     The Leader of the Council invited Councillor Rogers to submit Question 1 viz:-

For very good reasons Bankrupts are not allowed to become Charitable Trustees by law. Following the collapse of Councillor Hefin Thomas’ Building company with reported debts of over £350,000 affecting businesses across the Island, is the appointment of Councillor Thomas, as Chairman of the Isle of Anglesey Charitable Trust legally safe and have you sought legal advice?

The Leader of the Council commented that it was his belief that it was  the Company that had gone bankrupt and not the individual and that he was taking the legal advice and felt it important that Members present realised the importance of the Trust and the County Council. He therefore accepted the legal advice and was not prepared to answer Question 1.

Councillor Rogers thanked the Leader for the “comprehensive” response. He asked whether the Leader would agree, having heard what he had heard at today’s meeting, that action needed to be taken against Councillor Hefin Thomas to remove him from all positions of responsibility, that is as Portfolio Holder, within 7 days. If this was not done he proposed to call another Extraordinary Meeting of the Council. He stated he would expect a letter from the Managing Director within the next seven days indicating that the Leader was taking the action he had called for otherwise he would call for an Extraordinary Meeting asking that Councillor Thomas be removed from all positions on the Council i.e. as Portfolio Holder due to the disgrace he had brought on everyone.

The Leader of the Council stated he had given his answer and that as everyone present were aware the question was being asked in the wrong place.

2     The Chairman invited Councillor Rogers to ask his Second Question viz:

TO COUNCILLOR HEFIN W. THOMAS, CHAIRMAN OF THE ISLE OF ANGLESEY CHARITABLE TRUST -

In view of the fact that your former building company Cefni (Pentraeth) Ltd was dissolved, with reported debts of over £350,000, with many local businesses affected. Do you appreciate how insensitive your acceptance of the Chairmanship of the Anglesey Charitable Trust is seen by the Rate Payers of Ynys Mon?

Prior to Councillor Hefin Thomas responding, the Monitoring Officer stated that she was not suggesting that the question was inappropriate and she understood Councillor Thomas intended to respond, however, for future reference, the proper forum for such a question would be the Charitable Trust. The question was not being put to Councillor Thomas as a Member of the Executive, but rather, as Chair of the Charitable Trust, therefore it did not fall within the Council Procedure Rules. In future, she advised any such question should be put at the Trust.

Councillor Hefin Thomas thanked Councillor Rogers for the question. He was quite happy to stand before Members as he had been elected as Chairman of the Trust by Members and the Members, in turn, had been elected by the ratepayers. His election as Chair had been by a good majority and he was comfortable in accepting the position.

Councillor Rogers was asked whether he wished to ask a supplementary question. He thanked Councillor Thomas for his response and agreed he had been elected democratically, however, it would be put again to Members in 7 days time and it would be a Recorded Vote for taxpayers to see who was supporting such an appointment.

Councillor Fowlie, as one of those who had asked for the Extraordinary Meeting, requested permission to speak. His request was refused.  Councillor A.M.Jones repeated his request that any legal advice which is being given to any individual be made available, in writing, to all Members prior to the relevant Committee meeting.

3.     The Chairman invited Councillor Rogers to present his third question viz:-

TO PORTFOLIO HOLDER FOR PLANNING - Councillor Hefin Thomas

1. In hindsight, ought you to have declared an interest in the Planning Committee on 6.4.2005 on a departure application 22C169 in which you spoke out, in support of the application, which was approved?

Councillor Thomas thanked Councillor Rogers for his question and stated his answer was No.

Councillor Rogers said he felt there was an interest which should have been declared and he would take this issue up in other ways.

The Monitoring Officer advised in respect of the legal aspect to the question by stating there is no prohibition in the Code against a Member voting on a Planning Application made by a fellow Group or Party Member, or a relative of a fellow Group or Party Member. She accepted there could be other reasons to declare an interest and withdraw, such as a personal friendship, but for it to amount to a breach of the Code - the relationship must be more than merely mutual membership of the same Political Group or Party.

2. Following your support of the above planning 22C169 Councillor John Arthur Jones spoke in support and Councillor David Lewis Roberts proposed the approval. As the application was for the daughter of a fellow member of your Group the Radical Independents. Do you think any breach in the Council’s Code of Conduct occurred?

Councillor Thomas thanked Councillor Rogers for his question and referred him to to the answer given to a similar question to Councillor John Arthur Jones at the Council Meeting held on 14th December 2007 where Councillor R.L.Owen and A.M.Jones supported an application by the son of Councillor T.H.Jones who is in the same Group as them. He stated it was noticeable that Councillor Rogers had not asked them the same question. However, he was willing to answer the question.  He said he had not broken any Code and should not have declared an interest.

In response, Councillor Rogers stated it was not exactly the same as the question raised by Councillor J.A.Jones.This was every member of the Radical Independents Party. He asked how the Radical Independents packed the Planning Committee and believed this had to be against the Council rules.

On a point of Order, Councillor Hadley, as a Member of the Planning Committee, wished to make it clear he is an Unaffiliated Member and wished the Council Members to be fully aware of this.

On a point of Order, the Chairman agreed to allow Councillor Aled Morris Jones to submit a personal explanation. Councillor Jones said he tries to consider each planning application according to Policy, to assist all on the Island, not try to pick and choose who gets planning approval. He referred to a planning application in an area of AONB in Llanddona and conceded that the opposition members had walked out of the Planning Committee as they felt they were not

given fair play at Planning meetings. He objected to the Radical Group having 2 Members when they only had a right to one and Môn Ymlaen were refusing to resolve the discrepancy. The Chairman refused to allow Planning issues to be discussed and moved on.

The Chairman ruled he would allow Councillor J.A.Jones to make a personal explanation as he had been named by a fellow Councillor. He invited members of the press and public to attend Planning meetings to witness how Members vote, in particular Members of the Plaid Cymru Group vote when an application is submitted by a Plaid Cymru Member.  

Councillor Fowlie asked the Chairman for his personal explanation as to how Councillor Hadley had been allowed to speak when he had been refused permission to do so. The Chairman said it was a matter of personal explanation. Councillor Fowlie was allowed to give his explanation as to why he wanted to speak. He expressed his regret this meeting had been called  and that the

issue should have been dealt with at the meeting on 14th December. He asked the Chairman to ensure, in view of the fact that the press and public were present, that the questions be put in full. The Chairman stated he would keep to the Council’s Standing Orders.

Councillor Hefin Thomas wished to respond to the supplementary question. He explained that he is not a Member of the Planning Committee, neither is the Chair of the Council a Member of the Planning Committee. This was true at the time of the Planning application referred to by Councillor Rogers.  Councillor Thomas explained there are only 2 Members of the Radical Independent Group as Members of the Planning Committee and that he was present at the Committee, as the Local Member, presenting an application in his own Ward. He did not propose the application. He could not have done so as he was not a Member of the Committee. He spoke in favour of the application and sat down. Members of the Planning Committee had reached a decision in respect of the application.

Councillor Rogers maintained that if records were checked they would show Councillor Thomas had voted at the Planning Committee.

Councillor Thomas asked whether Councillor Rogers would be prepared to retract the statement in the event of it proving to be incorrect.

The Chairman moved the discussion on to the next question.

4.       TO COUNCILLOR D. LEWIS ROBERTS, CHAIRMAN OF THE DEVELOPMENT            OVERVIEW COMMITTEE -  

Following the last Council meeting when I raised concerns that you were not fit to Chair the Development, Infrastructure & Resources Policy Overview Committee because you were using designatory letters after your name on Council headed note paper which you were not entitled to.

You then saw fit to produce some form of documentation to convince the Monitoring Officer that it was in order for you to use them. She then wrote to all Councillors confirming the same. Can you confirm that Mr David Oliver of N.A.E.A wrote to you on the 14 June and 3rd October regarding in his words the unauthorised use of designatory letters and requesting that all evidence of the same be removed. Following a telephone call you made to Mr Oliver in October you were again advised that you were no longer a Member and must comply with his request.

Councillor D.Lewis Roberts confirmed he is qualified and passed all the relevant examinations on the 19th August 1980. He has a Certificate to confirm this. His Membership Number, as an Associate Member is 016708. Councillor Lewis Roberts believed the Freedom of Information Officer had confirmed this, in writing, to Councillor Rogers on 26 October 2006.

Councillor Rogers, in a supplementary question, made reference to the fact that Councillor Lewis Roberts had qualified in 1980. He stated the criteria for membership is very rigid and persons must meet the required standard every year. He accused Councillor Lewis Roberts of having failed to do this according to the Compliance Officer, Mr David Oliver. He accused Councillor Lewis Roberts of having given false information to the Council and to the Monitoring Officer.

Councillor Lewis Roberts responded by saying :-

Ÿ

he felt Councillor Rogers is trying to blacken his name;

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Councillor Rogers is wasting rate payers money;

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an invitation, sent via the FOI Officer, for an independent person to view the Certificate was not acted upon;

The Compliance Officer had confirmed his records only go back 3 years and that he would be referring the matter to the Trading Standards Dept., for investigation. Their investigation concluded that as he is not in any Trade or Business there appeared to be no criminal breaches. Councillor Lewis Roberts confirmed he had contacted the Association by letter in 1985/6 informing them of his retirement from practising but had received no response from them.  

He stated Members present at the meeting could confirm he was at one time  a practising Estate Agent and there was no intention to deceive or mislead anyone.

He concluded by saying he is very proud to be Chairman of the Development Infrastructure and Resources Committee and with the excellent work carried out by Members and Officers of that Committee. He stated he had done nothing wrong and had not told lies.

5.     The Chairman invited Councillor Rogers to present his 5th Question.

TO THE LEADER -

In view of the information I provide in the previous question to Councillor David Lewis Roberts. Do you still think that Councillor Lewis Roberts is a fit person to Chair the Overview Committee?

The Leader of the Council thanked Councillor Rogers for his question. He stated he had been asked the same question on 19 February 2006 and having heard what he had heard at today’s meeting, and from what had been read out, he confirmed his answer remained the same and that he is happy with Councillor David Lewis Roberts.

The Monitoring Officer stated whilst she appreciated that the Leader had answered the question, for future reference is was worthwhile for her to give advice on Question 5. The Leader had exercised his discretion to answer the question but he had no jurisdiction over the matters mentioned. Councillor David Lewis Roberts is not a Member of the Executive, and therefore has not been selected by the Leader, nor is he a Member of the same political group as the Leader.

Councillor Lewis Roberts has been appointed to the Overview Committee under the political balance rules, as a nominee of the Group to which he belongs and then subsequently appointed to the Chair of the Committee by the Committee itself.  All of those matters fall outside the Leader’s remit and it would have been perfectly reasonable for him not to answer the question.

Councillor Rogers responded by saying he felt the Monitoring Officer had made a good point with regard to political balance but argued there is no Political Balance as the Chair of all the Scrutiny Committees are Members of the ruling Group. He stated the Leader is dictating who is the Chairman and who gets the paid positions on the Council. He asked the Leader to take charge and ensure the political balance is understood and the Council have sensible Scrutiny Committees.

The Leader responded by saying he could not understand how he could be accused of dictating the Chairs of Committees when he did not sit on them. Furthermore, Councillor Rogers had asked him to take charge, but also said he, as Leader, is in charge. He could not follow the question put by Councillor Rogers.

Councillor G.O.Parry MBE thanked the Chairman for Chairing the meeting and the Monitoring Officer for the Legal Advice. He expressed regret that these questions had not been dealt with as originally requested as this would have avoided wasting a great deal of time and money.  

The Chairman closed the meeting by wishing all those present a Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year.

COUNCILLOR W.J.WILLIAMS

VICE CHAIRMAN IN THE CHAIR